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Saturday, November 17, 2007

7G,Rainbow colony and Michael Nyman connection

Theme from the movie 'The Piano' composed by Michael Nyman

A theme cue from the movie '7G, Rainbow Colony' by Yuvan Shankar Raja

one of many reasons why I can never keep Yuvan up in the list with IR and ARR....

More to come in this 'Plagiarism' section


Saraks said...

Barring the plagiarism, will you put YSR along with ARR,IR?

P.S. Suresh Kumar said...

saraks - No, and that is why i said that Plagiarism is one of the many reasons... It is so disheartening to know that a composer who is so promising gets into such acts... I am not denying that he is a good composer, and a very promising and successful one among the current lot... but stil something is missing in his music... the something that we get in a ARR or IR music.... My opinion is that when you hear a good music from a composer, you also have to get a feel that no one else could have done the song in a way he has done it... We get that feel in an ARR or IR composition but we rarely get it in others...

Saraks said...

Exactly, theres a huge gap after ARR which would probably not get filled up soon.Btw, no review on Kalloori yet?

Anonymous said...

Oh, yeah, it was disappointing to know that many pieces of the 7/G Rainbow Colony were unabashed rip-offs. (Not to forget the theme piece that was simply ripped off Johnny.)

Anonymous said...

Nice find.I would say that 7G is not one of U1's best BG scores till date.If you make a list of the best BGM composers in Tamil cinema then I would add U1 to that list along with IR and ARR.But if you make a list of top song composers which has place for just two MDs then it will have IR and ARR.


Amjath said...

check this out

P.S. Suresh Kumar said...

Saraks - I haven't bought the CD of Kalloori yet...Will be getting it soon....

Zero - Everyone knows about that Jhonny theme, but that main theme was not used in its entirety anywhere in 7GRBC... anyway, i also heard that almost the entire score of 'Kadhal Konden' is a rip-off from various sources.. I am still searching for the sources...

Nishant - If you take a lit of best BGM composers, then definitely Karthik Raja would rank higher than Yuvan....

Amjath - will checkout the link...

Amjath said...

Have u find which bit song is this....????

P.S. Suresh Kumar said...

Amjath - youtube is blocked in my office... will be able to see it only in the evening..

Amjath said...

hi suresh,

this song came in Kathal Kondaen (Thathi Thathi - song bit)
i guess, thats y i post it here...
plz check and confirm
if possible....

With Regards

P.S. Suresh Kumar said...

Amjath - let me check it again... but it sounded like 7grbc theme starting to me

Anonymous said...

This is too much of comparison

BTW what about "Maduraikku pogathadi" (ATM) and "Engitta Mothatha (Rajathi Raja).

I am sure you will say inspiration not 'Plagiarism' because ... oru kannil (ARR) vennai, maru kannil (Yuvan) Sunnambu

P.S. Suresh Kumar said...

Anon (Hard core Yuvan fan) - I haven't exaggerated anything here.. It is there for you to listen and judge... Common, Rahman wouldn't have done that song taking 'Engitta Mothaathey' as even inspiration. This kind of a tune comes naturally when you think of doing a folk number... i don't think Raaja has anything left behind for other composers to do in folk genre.... I am not against any particular composer... in my other blog or my write-up on Kadhal Konden background score, you can see me showering praises on Yuvan

Amjath said...

Hi come on man don't compare the starting alone....bcoz we have only 7 raaga's ok vaaaaaaaaa.....

"Maduraikku pogathadi" (ATM) and "Engitta Mothatha (Rajathi Raja) starting may similar what abt rest?????

kannan said...

undoubtedly thathi thathi thaavuthu nenjam. wow, i really liked that piece from kadhal konden. it's just slower than how yuvan presents it in kadhal konden, but besides that it's the same, even the way it turns into flute after one repetition. Don't know why Yuvan does this, he has so much talent that shows through in movies like Pudhupettai and Katradhu Thamizh, and even the peppy soundtracks like Manmadhan or Pattiyal.

And Anon, before claiming he doesn't plagiarise, do a bit more research about kadhal konden soundtrack. Manasu Rendum Paarka, Kaadhal Mattum Purivadhillai, Nenjodu Kalandhidu, and oh yes now it seems Thathi Thathi as well - all were blatant lifts. I have nothing against Yuvan, and I think he's very very talented, but one must accept that he does plagiarise fairly often. I believe the Kattil Naatu song from Kalvanin, and in fact many other songs, takes the rap bit from an English track.

oh btw, if you're interested in plagiarism, check out http://www.itwofs.com/
if you compare rahman's and yuvan's pages (links on right column), you might see some interesting differences. rahman HAS lifted before, though I personally would only call Hello Mister opening and Baba theme true lifts, the rest are fairly original.

New kamal on the block ;) said...

kanna, den ya should count numbers of rahman's inspiration/copies, wutever, it mabbie :(

Thakshak's Toofan Ki Raat / Paula Abdul's My Love Is For Real

Mellisaye Mr Romeo's/ Maurice Ravel's Bolero

Interlude from Karisal Tharisal from Taj Mahal/ Diego's Goodbye (cheaply copied by arr)

Taal's Raga Dance from Race with devil on Turkish highway

Machakkaari from Sillunnu oru kaadhal/ Maroon 5's

Tu hi tu/ Scarborough Fair

Sevvanam (Pavitra)/ Wake me up (no comments, bad)

Madrasa Suthi Pakka [May Madham]/Club Tropicana

Ishq Bina from Taal/ Starry starry night (Vincent)

Daud Title Song / Rich Girl

am sorry, few more:

2nd interlude of puthu vellai mazhai of Roja from MJ's dirty diana...worst copy :( beats and cello as well

Sa re ga me (pallavi tune) - boys from Eminem's Without ME

Newyork nagaram from Starin at sun by u2 :(

Jus IM me I would give ya minimum of 100 songs copied/inspired by arr

See, he is no angel...certainly, he has proven his mettle. I love most of his compositions, still I would not accept him as a creative composer : ( Mabbie great DJ or greatest sound engg from Asia...

Whether he has composed de jingle for old spice? If so den he should be best copycat..cut n paste of Mozart's O fortuna : (

New kamal on the block ;) said...

7 raaga's ok vaaaaaaaaa.....

Amjath, really???

I guess, ya mean 7 swarams, am I rite???

Because there are 72-melakarta/janaka ragams and in english it may be called parent ragams :)

n each melakarta ragam has its own derivative ragams, which is called as Janya Ragas...

Raagam Kaapi Naaraayani is derivative of Harikaambhoji 28th Melakartha, however, Kaapi is derivative of Kharaharapriya - 22nd Melakartha, wut to do??? Same names :(

sooo, there is lot of things we need to learn before being baised to our composer :( Ok vaaaaaa

Also, Annakiliye unna theduthey, Snehithane Snehithane - Alai Payuthey and Poovar senni mannan - Thiruvasagam are havin de scale of Sindhubhairavi. However, I do not find any similiarity from em :( do ya?

Thus, songs based on same ragams need not to be similar n songs based on different ragams need not to sound different...Gotcha???

However, Kaadu Thirande Kidakinrathu - Vasool Raja MBBS and enna solla enna solla from Thenali are based on hamarkalyani, I guess...sounds similar little bit, my 2 cents :(

Also, for yer information, rahaman n yuvan (does not learnt carnatic music) hardly follow particular ragam while composin songs...

It seems tat, Ennavale has kedaram in pallavi and charam has sindubhairavi, nattaibairavi n so on...Funny thing, unni got national award for dis song :( it happens only in India)

Sundari neeyum from Michael Madana Kama Rajan is pacca kedaram...Ok vaaaaaaaaaaaaa???

P.S: Sorry, I may not be more clearer wid mah points about raagams as I have not learnt Carnatic music :(

kannan said...

A lot of what you have mentioned are found in the link i referred to, and like I said I still would only consider Hello Mister and Baba Theme complete lifts (and perhaps the Akkadanu, cos the beat is really copied ad verbatim). You really have to see the difference between the comparisons raised for Yuvan, and that raised for ARR. Yuvan, esp in Kadhal Konden etc, rips the tune completely to the extent the listener feels like an idiot when he finds out. I haven't heard a number of the English songs you mention, but I have yet to hear any one that has the same tune as a Rahman song.

Sevvaanam has barely three notes in common with wake me up. Oru half line-ai vechukittu plagiarismnu sonna enna nyaayam? As someone mentioned in an earlier comment, mothame 7 swaramthaan. For example, Yuvan's Yedhedho from Pattiyal opens with a string piece which sounds like Sendhoora Poove. But nobody's complaining abt that, because that is mere inspiration which led to a very nice and original song. The appearance of the Johnny BGM in one of the 7g themes does lower its credibility, but nobody calls that piece an outright lift. Vekkame illama almost Deva/Srikanth Deva alavukku songs rip panrathu thaan konjam varuthama iruku. Esp this talented a composer, who honestly doesn't need to steal.

All said, I still have more hope for Yuvan than most other MDs in the field. He's talented, and he seems to have inherited speed of composing from his father. He does more songs than almost any other composer, and his quality of output is quite high. Avvappothu tune sudum pazhakathai vittu thallina santhosham :)

New kamal on the block ;) said...

Interlude from Karisal Tharisal from Taj Mahal/ Diego's Goodbye (cheaply copied by arr)

2nd interlude of puthu vellai mazhai of Roja from MJ's dirty diana...worst copy :( beats and cello as well

Sa re ga me (pallavi tune) - boys from Eminem's Without ME

You:~~I haven't heard a number of the English songs you mention, but I have yet to hear any one that has the same tune as a Rahman song.

Ya've answered yer current questions, first listen to 'em and blame Yuvan...I never say he is creative, I really feel rahman is a high profile deva...tat's it as ya feel bout yuvan's compositions...

My 2 cents, Hello Mister prelude wid piano (is tat copied, am not able to download from tat link) is need not to be copied...mabbie inspiration only...See Jazz style of swing would be same for most of de Jazz songs...Listen to de percussion, awesome! It is like backbeats or playin in pocket...Does my speakers sound milder...??? lol

Before tat listen to Osibisa of Kelele and Paarkadhey...certainly, my dad n his friends recorded dis song on their own voice by 1983 at denmark...When de movie - gentleman was released appa said, it is ditto copied...

Ottagatha Kattikko from Eddem ante...wut ya say???

hello sir,

All Saints- Bootie Call inspired or copied for ennachi unnaku from Kadhal virus ???


Muqabula Muqabula 2nd interlude and postlude ditto copied from Dr.Alban's martha oye

Mj's Who is it beats had been inspired for Pachai killikal from Indian, however its pallavi and Suthi Suthi vanthiga's pallavi are same...wut arr repeatin de same tune??? lack of tunes???If so then why he needs to take few months to compose???...

Thillana thillana - Night bird Deep Forests...Ditto : (

MJ's Jam ditto coiped by arr for Mere Dil Ka Tu Shehzaada - Kabhi Na Kabhi. Have ya ever listened to it???

New kamal on the block ;) said...

You:~~As someone mentioned in an earlier comment, mothame 7 swaramthaan.

Yup, I Said...however, english songs do not fall under any raagam when ya consider Bhavams, however, there is a possibilty tat english songs could be classified under particular ragam to some extend w.r.to scale...

You:~~For example, Yuvan's Yedhedho from Pattiyal opens with a string piece which sounds like Sendhoora Poove.

am listenin both de songs for more than 10 times...Could ya please lemme know de exact minutes, please?


Sir, listen to string orchestra at 2nd interlude of both de songs: Poopookum oosai from Minsara kanavu and Evaloru from Bramma??? Copied/inspiration/coincidence?

Both are heroine intro scenes, Gotcha???

Again??? listen to String orchestra piece at conversation part at both de songs - Athiharatha posi kolla from Avatharam and Strawberry from Minsara kanavu :-/ no comments :(

You:~~Esp this talented a composer, who honestly doesn't need to steal.

So ya mean arr is not a talented composer, he also copied (does not matter, it is one or two)??? or yer above line is applicable for deva and yuvan only??? Partiality???

Sir, certainly ain't intend to hurt ya...I feel very interstin being part onto here as long as it is healthy discussion...Anti-arr and die-hard arr fans, please don't change dis flow...

Thank ya suresh!!!

P.S. Suresh Kumar said...

Raajarules - Thanks for taking time to post all those info about ARR inspired/copied songs... But Can't comment on it until i listen to all of them... It is a big task... I will search and listen to one by one...

kannan said...

raajarules :

About Hello Mister, I'm quite of the opinion that it is copied. Though jazz sounds similar, the similarity between Memphis Stomp and Hello Mister is a bit high. If not copied, at least highly inspired. And I totally agree, the rhythm pattern in the song is amazing, gives it the kind of kick Memphis Stomp lacks.

Another striking ARR resemblance is Athiradee. The first time I heard it on my CD player, my immediate thought was Jam by Michael Jackson. After having listened to the song many times since, I can see the difference pretty clearly now, but the opening is clearly inspired.

Eddem Ente, I must admit I am giving Rahman the benefit of the doubt, though on listening to it I agree the resemblance is quite striking. Kelele, I still don't think it is similar enough to warrant plagiarism allegations. The seeming resemblance disappears very fast, and the style of song is so different.

I've been trying to isolate what made me think Yedhedho was similar to Sendhoora Poove, and the specific instance I can spot is the very beginning, the violin in Sendhoora Poove sounds quite similar to the violin opening in Yedhedho. Like I said, I'm not saying it's copied, just a small and nice inspiration.

I guess we're really differing on what we mean by copied and inspired. When I say a song is copied, I'm really referring to the 'Oh my goodness' moment when one hears the second song, and it didn't happen for me in a lot of the songs you mention. For example, Sevvaanam and Wake Me Up. I know both songs very well, even danced for Wake Me Up in some college function, but until the website alleged that it is similar it never occurred to me. Even now, while I can rationally see where the supposed similarity is, I can't accept that it was copied. It could be bias, I don't know. Maybe to do with the fact that I can't really imagine the music director sitting down and decide to rip the first 3 notes of Wake me up for Sevaanam. Same for Yedhedho, and imo the 7g/Johnny link. I don't think Yuvan sat down and decided to sound similar. But in songs like Theendi Theendi from Bala, or the Kadhal Konden songs, it is very clear that he did. And in my opinion so did Rahman in Akkadanu, Baba Theme, Athiradee, and maybe Ottagatha Kattiko.

I really wouldn't call Rahman a high profile Deva. I wouldn't even call Yuvan that, because the quality of his completely original output is still extraordinary, as is imo his BGMs (i don't how original all his BGMs are, but I really believe he enhances the movie a lot).

I wouldn't call Rahman a high profile Deva because he truly and completely overwhelms me with his music, with his freshness, with his uniqueness. And really, you have to accept that no song of Rahman can be said to have been completely copied. Like not even a full pallavi or a full charanam. At most we are now debating abt the first two lines or background rhythms of songs. Deva kooda compare panrathu konjam over :)

I haven't listened to the pieces you referred to in the most recent comment, will do so and reply later . :D

Oh btw, completely unrelated to current topic, listen to Mustaffa (Kadhal Desam) second interlude and Azhagiya Theeye (Minnale) first interlude. Any comments? :)

V said...

My old mail on ARR's inspirations to ITWOFS.com.

I did not see anything on these in the site for long.

-- Start old mail --
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005
Subject: Feedback & Info on itwofs.com

Dear Mr. Kathik,

this mail is regarding the following piece of info in your site.

"Anbae anbae [Film: Jeans]

The opening sequence seems inspired from Peter Gabriel's 'Of these, hope...' from the

album 'Passion: Music from the last temptation of Christ'.

Listen to anbae anbae | Of these, hope
Is A R Rahman a fan of Peter Gabriel? Tune is original! "

I beg to differ :

I do not know of the rhythm of this song. But the humming has a clear inspiration from an old song - 'Vaarayo Vennilave' of the old Tamil film 'Missiyamma', where this is used as an instrumental tone.

Rahman has a lot of inspirations from old songs : take 'Roja Roja' from 'Kaadhalar Dinam' - compare the tune to two songs of 'Varumaiyin Niram Sigappu' - a Hindi song which ends in
Tamil 'Poove Poove...' and also the end of the stanzas of the famous 'Chippiyirukkudhu' song.

I have also heard that the famous ending beats of 'Mukkala Muqabla' of 'Kaadhalan' are also taken from Dr. Alban or some other album.

In 'Mudhalvanae' from 'Mudhalvan', the ending part of the first stanza 'Mudhalvaa...vaa..' is like 'Oh Bloody..dy...dy' from 'Pardes'. I do not know if Nadeem-Shravan were original or they had some other source.

The tune of 'En Veetu Thottathil' song from 'Gentleman' is a straight take from the classical rendition of Arunagirinathar's song 'Naadha Vindhu Kalaathi Namo Namah'.

I am not accusing him of plagiarism but his music is not as 'innovative' as it is made out to be and marketed as.

Awaiting your feedback.....

--End old mail --

I repeat - I am not accusing ARR of plagiarism. He is a good entertainer, makes you happy with his music but his music is not as 'innovative' as it is made out to be and marketed as.

P.S. Suresh Kumar said...

Venky - I do believe that Rahman gets inspired a lot from old songs which i think isn't as bad as you put it. and about Rahman's innovation, I have to re-think and anlayse a lot, befor i give a convincing reply about it... first of all, the word 'Innovation' has to be defined properly...

Anonymous said...

Guys Just to inform you all Kadhal Kondaen Songs have been credited to its original composers in the movie end titling..

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